CRT - worth it?

[Stewart McSporran]

Hi,

I've just found efilmforum and have now "wasted" nearly half of my day off reading old postings!

I'm a minor collector of 8mm films but have a major DVD collection, which leads me to the reason for this posting.

I'm seriously looking into getting a video projector early in the new year. I've borrowed a friend's Phillips LC 4433 LCD projector and I'm distinctly unimpressed with the black levels.

I've been toying with the idea of picking up a Barco, or similar, CRT projector. I either pay 300 - 800 pounds on e-Bay and look at an additional 1500 for tubes, or pay 3500 for a guaranteed second hand model.

What I'd like to know is, is it really worth the extra money? The reviews of machines like the Sanyo PLV-Z1 seem to hint I can get comparable(ish) quality for 1/3 of the price and about half the running costs.

regards
Stewart

[Michael Coffin]

Don't go LCD, go DLP. My Sharp PG-M20X yields incredible results (including deep blacks) and at 1900 lumens it's gorgeous! With street prices currently around $1700 USD you can't go wrong!

-Mike

[Evan Chase]

Michael is right....CRTs have limited life and are expensive to replace. DLP is the way to go.

VHS looks poor on any projection setup---compared to a good dvd on DLP. HDTV looks impressive as well.

[Bernhard Benet]

Originally posted by Michael Coffin
Don't go LCD, go DLP. My Sharp PG-M20X yields incredible results (including deep blacks) and at 1900 lumens it's gorgeous! With street prices currently around $1700 USD you can't go wrong!

-Mike

Before you get a one-chip DLP, make sure you watch it for at least a couple hours and if you don't get a headache then you can go ahead and buy it.

bb

[Dave Harris]

I've had two single DLP machines for over three years now and this headache thing is entirely new to me. Bernard, (or anyone else) where'd this headache thing come from? Are there really reports of people suffering such a thing? The one thing that I'd make sure of when shopping a single DLP machine is the rainbow effect.

[Evan Chase]

I have noticed if I watch my DLP picture longer than, say two hours, I do get eye strain. I think this is due to the scanning and projection effect of this type of process. I don't have any problem if I run just one feature.

For that matter, remember when you were a kid and you stayed in the theatre all Saturday afternoon, only to come outside in the light and have disorientation?

Whether it's the constant unnoticeable flicker of a movie projector, a scanning effect of a LCD or DLP, our eyes can only take so much of it without side effects.

[Stewart McSporran]

Thanks for the feedback, I'll junk the CRT idea (my wife'll be happy).

I'm a little concerned about the DLP eye strain / rainbow. I don't know if it's just me but when watching real film (8mm or at the cinema) the movement sometimes literally looks like a sequence of still images and not smooth motion. It's particularly bad on panning shots.

Can any of the UK correspondents recommend a dealer who'd allow me an extended trial period? (Preferrably in the Glasgow area.)

Stewart

[Bernhard Benet]

Originally posted by Dave Harris
I've had two single DLP machines for over three years now and this headache thing is entirely new to me. Bernard, (or anyone else) where'd this headache thing come from? Are there really reports of people suffering such a thing? The one thing that I'd make sure of when shopping a single DLP machine is the rainbow effect.

Dave

There have been a lot of reports on eystrain and headache in connection with DLP one-chippers in the avsforum.com

I personally had to return a one chip DLP because everytime I would watch something I would develop a headache. And other than this I never get headaches, no matter what I do.

This is not the case with the 3 chip dlp's or lcd projectors, or for that matter, watching any kind of film. This obviously does not affect every person, but a lot of people do complain about it.

Bernhard

[Mark Todd]

Hi Stewart, did you get the film OK, hope you enjoyed it, good fun.
there is an AV shop in Glasgow called robert whyte who are quite good, you should be able to locate them.
Also about the best in the UK is Sound and vision in Farnworth/ Bolton. They used to do film actually.
They have about the best prices for projectors in the Uk and even better have a deferred interest free option.
One I would recommend looking into is the epson s1 or something liek that, i`ll get back to you on it to be sure about it £800 with 3 years cover thrown in, cheap bulb and 4/3 and going by the film you bought off me you would be better with a 4/3 shape anyway.
I also prefer 4/3 to watch 235 dvd films un de-squeezed in a 16/9 shape.
The small espom is LCD.
I personally would go for that if you at times will show films to other people as some may get the rainbows and headaches.
I have an older sony CS2 projecotr and I think the image is stunning LCD, and liquid crystal display is more or less like film a three panels in line three colours the about the size of film with light going through. I just prefer it as I suffer strain anyway i`m pretty sure I`d struggle with DLP.
just my two penath worth.
best Mark.
PS even a modest second hand LCD model like a sony CS2, 3 ,4 or 5 will blow super 8 out of the window and into the weeds generally. you`ll be amazed and love it but i`m sure still need abit of fiddly film.
Best Mark.
PPS always worth getting out the yellow pages and looking up a few audio visual companies that do for business use etc, they may have a second hand machine thats pretty good for a few hundred pounds, but I suppose when you can get a belter gauranteed for 3 years for £800 maybe its worth getting new.Good luck.

[Stewart McSporran]

Hi Mark,

The film turned up on Monday. Not a bad condensation, another 10 minutes would have been ideal.

I'm going to take a trip to see the Glasgow branch of Sevenoaks today and see if they'll allow an extended trial period.

cheers
Stewart

[Mark Todd]

Hi Sewart, good luck, if they have one check out the sony HS10, have you read about them.
I wouldn`t totally discount DLP, both have good points over the other but it wouldn`t be for me.
Let us know how you go on.
Best Mark.

[Stewart McSporran]

Well I've just returned from the store 1,500 pounds lighter, and I don't mean weight!

I quickly settled on the Sanyo PLV-Z1, but something wasn't quite there when it was running off the Pioneer 5xx they were using. So we changed to a Harmon Kardon DVD25 and I was blown away. I've never seen DVD look so smooth or crisp. The opening sequence of the Lion King is stunning.

So, I've come home with the demo machines. If I like them I'll swap them for brand new ones, if not we'll try something else.

That's what I call service!

regards
Stewart

Ps. The only drawback is that, being a 16x9 chip I'll need to physically move the machine back about 8 inches to get a 4:3 picture to fill my screen. Does anyone have any plans for a ceiling mount that can do this? (I've just blown this year's toy budget!)

[Mark Todd]

Hi Stewart bear in mind that seven oaks tend to be an expensive company. Thats the top price and now as they are bringing a version two out these can probably be had around the £1000 mark. Do ring Sound and vision first, or maybe you can get a better price and get seven oaks to price match they should do especially if you wave the notes.
I have heard good thing about these but with you liking 4/3 why I menioned the new epson LCD 4/3 machine at £800 with free three year cover, may suit your needs more.
I bet you are knocked out with the quality.
Many people in cine will not accept just how good they are now.
Maybe that will bring the price of films down a bit which would be good for the film hobby in general especially younger folks with families.
Anyway I can find you the sound and vision number if you want it or just buy home cinema choice and look at the adds for projectors with them and others and take it in to seven oaks with you, it can`t hurt.
Best Mark.
PS even when new out the Sanyo generally went for £1300 or less. great machine as it has a lens shift to.
PPS do check for dead pixels when you get one.Or ask the shop to check first better still.

[Stewart McSporran]

Mark, the 1500 included the DVD player, I got the projector for 1100. I know I probably could have saved a hundred or so, but I was very impressed by the quality of the service, and think that is worth paying a little more for.

No sign of any dead pixels, and I spent enough time checking it last night.

Yes, you're right, the quality is superb. On the low power (cinema) setting it's very quiet and I can only complain about the black level because I'm looking for it. My wife just commented that it was miles better than the Phillips machine I'd borrowed from a friend.

The Hammer Dracula just looks wonderful.

Now, should I really sell all my 8mm? (There's still something about the ritual of film though!)

Stewart

[Mark Todd]

Hi Stewart, no I wouldn`t sell all of your 8mmm stuff, maybe parr it down a bit but you will find like me I`m sure you will miss the fiddle factor and the sussing out films etc.
I love my Sony and the superb picture but you have to watch it doesn`t become like the TV. I was just using it all of the time, even watching Blackadder and Fawlties on it. Now I`m more choosey and watch a film every two days or so.
£1100 sounds pretty good to me, with good local backup. Wait till you wang somethng like Gladiator through it, the quality is awesome.
The region 2 of Zulu will be superb as well if your thing.
One thing I have wondered about the 16/9 machine`s is wheras on my 4/3 sony I watch the 235 dvds( coming out of the DVD player set 16/9) unopened so you get a full 16/9. I suppose like you can pull up on your 16/9 TV. Can you do that on the Sanyo to fill 16/9 without loosing at the edges.
So in a sense on minne you are seeing all of the image on 16/9 with small bars( on the 4/3 image) but loosing nothing.
I did hear that on some 16/9 projectors to watch 235 at 16/9 you zoom in and loose a bit each side.
Sorry fro rambling explaination, you probably know what I mean.
Best Mark.
PS on my CS2 the blacks are nothing Fab but very very accepatble and the image itself looks better 7 feet wide than it does on my 32" TV, it really does, more 3D sort of thing.

PPS if you do shed a few I`m looking for L+H titles done by Derran and Perrys by the way on super 8.

[Stewart McSporran]

Originally posted by Mark Todd
The region 2 of Zulu will be superb as well if your thing.

I've got the region 1, but haven't tried it yet. I ran Indiana Jones Last Crusade last night - superb.

Originally posted by Mark Todd
One thing I have wondered about the 16/9 machine`s is wheras on my 4/3 sony I watch the 235 dvds( coming out of the DVD player set 16/9) unopened so you get a full 16/9. I suppose like you can pull up on your 16/9 TV. Can you do that on the Sanyo to fill 16/9 without loosing at the edges.
So in a sense on minne you are seeing all of the image on 16/9 with small bars( on the 4/3 image) but loosing nothing.
I did hear that on some 16/9 projectors to watch 235 at 16/9 you zoom in and loose a bit each side.
Sorry fro rambling explaination, you probably know what I mean.


I'm not 100% sure I'm with you - the Z1 has three settings for placement of the image on the 16x9 panel:

1. Full - shows the entire image from the player stretched to fill the 16x9 frame. How you would view normal anamorphic films.

2. Zoom - zooms in on the image. Basically if you're watching a 16x9 film that has been letterboxed onto a 4x3 frame it expands the image to the full width of the 16x9 panel but chops off the top and bottom of the pictures. (What Film Four is doing on it's digital service - for some reason they stopped transmitting proper anamorphic pictures a while ago. Time I stopped paying them.)

3. Normal - centres a 4x3 picture on the 16x9 panel so you get the black bars each side of the picture.


I've got some L&H, but I'm pretty sure that they're Walton prints (and silent).

Stewart