WishingTB Nice 16mm projector- maybe xenon?

[Steve Shumaker]

Hi folks. I show about 6 hours of film a week (in house and backyard), I only have about $1,500-$2,000 worth of film and only three or four films in really great shape- most are faded, worn, etc... and I rent quite a few. But even $1500 represents a lot of money (for me) and I'm showing the films on $75 projectors that chatter, wow the sound, frequently need loop resets- and for all I know could be jeopardizing the film. I've done the search before and as I never seem to be swimming in money, I'm still running my little cheapie Singers... BUT...

My ideal (within reason) projector (criteria in order of importance)-
• Reliable, smooth, kind to film. My projectors are touchy.
• Priced within my short reach. Used is great.
• Bulbs/parts available at reasonable prices
• Anamorphic lens available
• Xenon- the more horsepower, the better (though I don't wish to go to 220v)
• Short lenses available
• Portable (this only last because if I REALLY need to travel I can take my current 16's)

Regarding xenon, I've looked at ICECO, on eBay, asked around (asked here before, which has helped me refine)... I keep running up against cost- I can't go into vehicle-style price ranges (well, maybe a shiny new bicycle...). So, three questions:
• Why does a used 350-watt xenon portable cost 5 times as much as a used 200-watt standard projector? Supply and demand?
• Does anyone have a projector that fits most or all of my above criteria that they'd like to offer? Or a lead on one?
• My criteria be damned, what 16mm projector do I really need?

That's about it...

Help?

Steve Shumaker

[Michael Coffin]

Hi Steve,

Well, you've started another one of those "which projector is best" threads - be prepared for a "My Favorite Projector" holy-war! :)

The way I see it - you need to decide if you want a good Xenon projector, or an inexpensive projector - you can't have both. Xenon projectors cost a fortune because they are in very short supply, and for good reason - the pictures they project are spectacular compared to an ELC bulb. Even if you decide you want to pop for a Xenon, they're hard to find these days.

If we are talking about ELC class machines, I'd definitely recommend the Elmo 16-CL and any version of the Kodak Pageant series. They're terrific machines and incredibly gentle on film. The Elmo 16-CL is a slot load, the Pageants are manual loads. In addition, the Pageants have the Super-40 shutter (most models) that automagically switches between 2-blade and 3-blade for optimum light output and the sound fidelity focus allowing PERFECT focusing of the optical track (most projectors employ a compromise focus).

As far as short focal length lenses, again - these are hard to come by for ANY model machine, and can be rather expensive.

Having said all of this, I have a few Kodak Pageants, a couple of Elmo's (one 16-CL, one 16-AL) and a number of short focal length and scope lenses for both lines. Contact me off list if you are interested, I'll give you a good price - and best of all you'll know what you are buying (versus buying a projector on eBay, which could wind up being a piece of junk). :)

-Mike

[Steve Shumaker]

So I'm not likely to find a 50,000 watt carbon-arc projector in mint condition for under $300? Darn.

Yes, I figured that the various Sensei would have to weigh in, but the head-bashing usually turns up far more useful information than a static FAQ (shout-out to Mr. Whittle, Mr. Coffin, Mr. Layton, Mr. Sigel and the others who have helped me so much in the past!)

RE: Good or inexpensive, I have two inexpensive projectors already equipped w. anamorphics and several short lenses- I need a GOOD projector and if I can't afford a good xenon, then it'll have to be a good ELC- I just figure as long as I'm considering throwing money at a projector, might it not be the time to throw a whole lot of money and get the one that I really drool for (again, within reason- Lord knows I'll never afford the projector I'd buy in a perfect world...)

RE: xenon, is there any reason besides light output why the picture is so much better? I mean, the Lumen jump between a 250-watt Eiki ELC and a 350-watt Eiki xenon can't be THAT significant, can it? Or are you talking about the 500-watt-plus machines when you say "a good xenon"?

Thanks for the leads on the Elmos and Pageants- depending on what else folks contribute in the holy war, I may contact you- from your various postings I do have the impression that you not only know what you're talking about but that you have great respect for film and film equipment- I'd trust a machine from you to be in great condition.

S

[Michael Coffin]

Hi Steve,

Xenon machines are identical in most respects to their non-Xenon lamp based cousins. A good example is the Elmo 16-CL 250 watt Xenon. It is nearly identical to the 16-CL in every single way. When we are talking about Xenon machines we are only talking about the light source, so to answer your question there is nothing else about a machine with a Xenon lamp that makes the picture "better" - it's the Xenon light source that does. If you put an ELC based 16-CL and a Xenon based 16-CL side by side you'd be able to tell right away which one is Xenon based on the image projected.

Xenon burns whiter (I forget the exact temperature, maybe someone else will jump in here), and converts more of the energy which it draws into LIGHT and less into HEAT, so it's very efficient.

If my personal experience helps you at all, I thought ELC machines were just fine - until I bought my 550 watt Xenons (Elmo CX-550's). I fell in love with them! I figured I'd keep the ELC based machines around for inspecting films and various other things - but the fact is I don't enjoy watching ANY film now unless it's on my CX-550's - I'm completely spoiled. They cost a good amount of money, but I have no regrets having bought them. You'll see a HUGE difference in picture quality.

Perhaphs you can find someone in your local area with a Xenon machine and have them project a couple of films for you. Look at both B/W and Color (IB Tech looks OUTSTANDING on Xenon versus an ELC).

-Mike

[Steven Sigel]

I just wanted to clarify something --

The power consumption of a lamp cannot be correlated with the relative brightness for different types of lamps. Xenon lamps are much brighter than halogen lamps.

The measurement you want is the # of lumens put out by the lamps...

I've got Elmo 16-CL 250W Xenons and, while I'm not sure what the light output is, I would guess it's probably 3-5 times what an 250W ELC would put out. Plus the light is much whiter -- after watching a Xenon, you'll think that everything else looks yellow...

BTW - If you are going for a Halogen model - I'd recommend one of the following:

Elmo 16-CL (or Kodak Ektagrahic Ct-1000 -- same thing)
Eiki SSL-0 (or B&H 3580 -- same thing)
Kodak Pageant 250S

All three are great machines...

[Steve Shumaker]

So, I'm all over the idea that a 250-watt 0r 350-watt xenon is far and away brighter than halogen- which is nice because I didn't like the idea of having to jump all the way to a pedestal model to get an appreciable lumen-jump... and the light vs. heat efficiency appeals to the Prussian in me.

So, since no xenon is on eBay right now and the commercial sources tend to be pricier than what one might find from an individual, what kind of ballpark do the lower-end portable xenons (used, in good condition) go for? I recall from my earlier bout with this topic that someone (John Whittle?) mentioned one of the "E"-brand models (Elmo or Eiki) accepted a knock-off bulb type that was readily available and significantly cheaper than what some other xenons required- anyone want to throw me a bone on this one?

And in the interest of preserving some shred of credibility as a realist, when I say "shiny new bike" price range, I mean a nice 18-speed Italian racing bike- not a red Schwinn with a bell...

S

[Michael Coffin]

Hi Steve,

Superior Quarts is re-manufacturing many of the Xenon bulbs since Ushio and other "original suppliers" have (or may) discontinue production on some of them, so that's great news. A few of us are testing the Superior Xenon bulbs now and so far they seem to be perfect.

As far as availability and price of Xenon machines - who knows. Unfortunately, it's a "supply and demand" thing. I could tell you what I think a fair price might be for a particular model, but that means nothing. Ultimately the price will be set by either the seller or two or more bidders if it's on eBay. ICECO has a few portable Xenon machines shown as being for sale on their website, but I don't know if that represents current inventory - and you can expect to pay a premium buying from ICECO.

The best thing to do is A) Ask if anyone has one available (as you are doing here), B) Watch the eBay listings and hope one comes along at a fair price and that you are the only bidder. :)

Good Luck Steve. :)

-Mike

[Steven Sigel]

Hi Steve,

You should expect to pay anywhere from $400-$3000 for a portable Xenon depending on what model and who you buy it from....

FYI - Lamps are available from Superior Quartz Products for the Eiki 350W machines (2000, 3000 series and some others -- I'm sure John Whittle or one of the other Eiki experts can tell you all the models, SX- 3501) and also for the Elmo 16-CL Xenon (250W -- SX-2501). I'm not sure if Superior is working on the Elmo 350 and 550 watt lamps or the Eiki 550watt lamps... You'd have to check with them...

[Michael Coffin]

FYI... Superior is definitely manufacturing the Elmo 550 watt bulb - I have the prototype here (and I'm WAY overdue on testing it, sigh.....).

-Mike

[Steve Shumaker]

In a related topic, while doing the scan for xenon on eBay, came across an ICECO auction for a 35mm projector w. xenon lamphouse- don't know ANYTHING about 35mm so don't know if this is a worthwhile item or not- but here you go...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2987459768&category=4791

s

[Steve Shumaker]

I've located an Elmo 16CL xenon- supposedly in "like new" condition. I have a few questions before I proceed any further- First of all, is the bulb type "SX-2501" as Steven indicates above? I've been to superior quartz and they have a 4501 and a 25001 but I haven't been able to locate a "2501". The reason I ask is that I'd like to have some idea of the availabilty, cost per bulb, and approximate lifespan of the bulb.

Second question, I've never owned an Elmo and supposedly the 16CL for sale is remote-capable, reads magnetic sound, etc, etc, etc... I don't feel that I need any of these capabilities but don't know if there's a "stripped down" version that might be available for less money. Is there?

Last question (and it's a doozy): Is $1,500 insane for a "new" (5 hours) 250-watt xenon?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Shumaker

[Steven Sigel]

I've located an Elmo 16CL xenon- supposedly in "like new" condition. I have a few questions before I proceed any further- First of all, is the bulb type "SX-2501" as Steven indicates above? I've been to superior quartz and they have a 4501 and a 25001 but I haven't been able to locate a "2501". The reason I ask is that I'd like to have some idea of the availabilty, cost per bulb, and approximate lifespan of the bulb.

Second question, I've never owned an Elmo and supposedly the 16CL for sale is remote-capable, reads magnetic sound, etc, etc, etc... I don't feel that I need any of these capabilities but don't know if there's a "stripped down" version that might be available for less money. Is there?

Last question (and it's a doozy): Is $1,500 insane for a "new" (5 hours) 250-watt xenon?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Shumaker

Hi Steve,

That's the right lamp SKU. Call up and ask to speak to Dennis Losco, JR -- and tell him that I sent you and he'll get you set up with one of those lamps. The price, I believe, is $204 for the lamp...

All the Xenon Elmos have magnetic sound and various other features (I believe) - so you can't get a stripped down model that is still Xenon... There are some Eiki xenon models that don't have mag sound, but I don't think that the projector would be any cheaper because of that -- people buy these things for the xenon lamps, rather than the other features....

As for how much to pay - that depends on how badly you want the machine... $1500 is pretty steep for one of these, but if it truely is brand new, that raises the value considerably. I've got three of these and I paid $375, $450 and $600 for them respectively - but they were not brand new.....

[Steven Sigel]

P.S.

Did you look for the lamp on Superior's web site? It won't be there -- it's brand new, I just got the first properly functioning lamp from them a few weeks ago...

Also -- life span should be about 2000 hours. And obviously, since they just took the time to clone the lamps, they're available right away, and should be available from now on. The lamps are made to order, so they don't have to carry any inventory... (I think they need a 4-6 week lead time).

I've got one now that I'm still running through it's paces, but I'm planning to order a couple of spares to have available... At $204 per lamp, that's really cheap -- compare that to a Gemini MARC lamp which costs about $100, and only lasts 50 hours...

[Jeff Taylor]

Steve: FWIW, the light output of a typical ELC projector with a three bladed shutter is around 650 lumens, or 850 with a two bladed shutter. A 350w Eiki xenon puts out 2000--big difference not to mention the color temperature which is roughly 5500 for the ELC and around 7000 for the xenon. Colors pop, and even b/w films have a glow to them. As far as price, my experience (with Eiki's) has been a bit higher than what Steve Sigel mentions. Maybe he's just a better negotiator, but then the Eiki's are brighter than the 250w Elmo's.